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Leaving Neverland (Part 2) - Discussion

Leaving Neverland

Premise: Director Dan Reed's two-part documentary features interviews with Wade Robson and James Safechuck as well as their families as they discuss how the then two pre-teen boys were befriended by Michael Jackson.

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r/LeavingNeverlandHBO[84/100] (score guide)
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The discussion for part 1 can be found here.

1.6k comments
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level 1
445 points · 2 months ago

I really just dont get how anyone can be sceptical at this point. If MJ wasnt a pedophile then he easily was the most pedophile-like non pedophile in the history of humankind.

level 2
[deleted]
103 points · 2 months ago

I think part of it is people really loved and were inspired by his music, part of it has to do with people repping their ethnicity as usual, and part of it is people often have simplistic views of human nature, and can't reconcile that a person can have a good side and also have personal demons they succumb to. They see the good and they can't accept both the good and the heinous existing in the same person, it's either/or.

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level 2

MJ died when I was a kid, however I remember how he was portrayed by the media and people around me: extremely weird and a victim of his evil money-hungry father. He was a famous human freak. Gossip magazines were full of stories that his nose (or other body parts) is falling out again, how he did weird things bc he had no childhood (extreme peter pan syndrome), how alone and sad he was. He was a pitiful victim of the industry, his family, racist society (he turned white), ppl around him. I didn’t like his music, his music wasn’t popular among kids at that time. I wasn’t interested in celebrities or the music industry. My main emotion towards MJ was pity and sadness.

So I’m not surprised that many ppl still want to defend him.

level 3
26 points · 2 months ago

The thing is, life is complex. Someone can be abused, deprived of childhood, lonely, racially discriminated - AND a pedophile.

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level 2
58 points · 2 months ago

I think it's because Michael groomed them and their families to a ridiculous degree and in the documentary they describe their relationship as one of love. Michael was an emotional manipulator that abused the boys that loved him, not a violent abductor.

Even the Jackson Estate repeats that argument a lot: "If they were really abused, why did they keep coming back so many times?".

level 3

I know. And the Jackson family’s argument is absolutely sick!!!! It shows absolutely how warped everyone in that family really are and how disconnected they are and desperate to cover this all up.

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level 1

I watched Part 1 today and was horrified even by the tangible, undeniable things they showed. The dozens of faxes with "I love you"s, the video and audio he recorded himself, the phone calls, the weird photoshoots, the constant doting...it's just so disturbing even if you don't think he molested anyone.

level 2
156 points · 2 months ago

He called him "The Little One" instead of by his name. That was very telling to me. Like he has a harem of boys and he recalls them by their physical appearance and not by their names. Disgusting.

level 3
25 points · 2 months ago · edited 2 months ago

It also goes hand in hand with taking away a person's name, which makes that person "your own".

We do that in relationships as a romantic gesture. You're not just Sonya, Barbara or Michelle, but you're babe. You're not just Robert, Andrew or Thomas, but you're honey. It signals that you belong to me, obviously in a consenting fashion.

We also did that during slavery. You're no longer Mbene, you're now Tom and Tom belongs to me. And if Tom starts acting up, then you're just boy. So shut up, boy, and work.

We also do that when we try to belittle someone. You're not Bobby, the chubby kid from Grade 7, you're fatso the fuckhead now. I have the power over you, because I get to decide what your name is. I am your superior.

The power of naming and taking away one's name is very real. Michael took away their identity. They were no longer themselves. They were "the Little One" now. And the little one belongs to Michael. He had the power over them. It's terrifying. It also adds a layer of sexual lust, I think. He didn't refer to them as honey, or cutie, or any other asinine nickname. No, he chose the LITTLE one aspect with a heavy focus on the age here. Probably just to affirm to himself constantly that yes it is indeed a little boy and it is oh so good for him. Again, terrifying.

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level 2
[deleted]
234 points · 2 months ago

My wife and I said something similar. We paused it after it showed all the faxes and were just like... “Even if you still somehow don’t believe he molested anyone, just the things there’s concrete proof he did—sleeping with kids obsessively, the faxes, the phone calls—all of that is so wrong that it should be enough to go: Fuck Michael Jackson forever.”

And yet, here we are, with zillions of people somehow still defending this guy.

level 3

What about all the locks on his doors and the alarms so they'd know people were coming. That was weird.

And even just having all these kids as friends one at a time, which was public knowledge, and then basically dropping them for someone else, that's just cruel and doesn't mesh with the 'MJ was a wonderful kindly man who loved children and wanted them to be happy' thing.

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level 3
61 points · 2 months ago

Sleeping with the same boy for over 30 consecutive nights, 6+hour daily phone calls. What the fuck. And It's also one boy at a time. The austrilain had a brother, how come the brother never played or had sleepovers? Imo it's because that would be the same as having a sleepover with your wife/girlfriend sister...

level 4

I think it had more to do with with isolating the abuse so that the child wouldn’t have anyone they knew that also experienced the same abuse. Easier to keep it all hidden. Shows that Jackson was very aware of he wrong his was and shows how he deliberately took measures to plan and coverup his crimes. Hence, Jackson was NOT a child mind in an adult body. His motives and measures were cold and calculated.

level 5

Not to mention the drills to dress quickly, indoctrination to cover up, door with 4 locks on it to his room, etc.

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level 3

Exactly. I asked the defenders if they would let their child sleep in a bed with an adult man who acted like MJ. crickets

1 more reply

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